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Sourcing Top Talent in the Post-COVID 19 Era

Talent Sourcing Webinar Series

Craig Fisher and Joss Leufrancois


Craig Fisher  0:01  

Hey, it’s Craig Fisher with inside talent. This is our special talent sourcing series presented by design edge you can get there by going to visage dot jobs. And today we have with us Joss Leufrancois, who is the founder and CEO of Visage, how are you? How’s it going? What’s going on?


Joss Leufrancois  0:19  

I’m great. Thanks very much for having me today.


Craig Fisher  0:23  

Absolutely. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about you and about massage. And then we want to talk about an article that you wrote on LinkedIn that I think is very fascinating talking about the biggest jobs rebound in history that’s on the verge of happening. So tell us a little bit about you and massage and we’ll get right into that.


Joss Leufrancois  0:44  

Yeah, right. So um, I mean, I’m a recruiter. I’ve been doing that for the past 15 years now. I was originally an agency I co founded a recruitment agency back in 2005. And that was 10 years ago. Joanie was right to be successful. When exited in 2014. We were in 12 countries while doing $50 million revenue. And I had 75 hotels in my team doing about 1000 placements a year. And while was really interested about and the one thing I wanted to solve is the fact that I wanted my recruiters to spend more time with candidates hiring manager, I was doing interviews, and and they would be spending their time most of our time was spent on LinkedIn. And those are job boards, doing a lot of manual work trying to identify potential candidates find that contact details, phase them, and so on. So this is the prime we wanted to solve. And that’s why we we created these. It’s essentially a product where as a recruiter, submit your job, and then we get a community of salsa neighbors around the world to go Go out there and you don’t find potential candidates did that really matter. Also, within 24 hours, you’ve got a list of candidates for review, and then one click and you can engage with them. So the value prop is really around getting your coaches to focus on the value add aspect of the job building relationship, as opposed to do the robotic dusk.


Craig Fisher  2:25  

So you said something that I think was very interesting. It sounds like that visage is crowdsourcing, sourcing with a community of sources, and they each get to bid on sourcing for any particular job that a customer might submit.


Joss Leufrancois  2:46  

That’s great. So what we experimented a lot with them what they are, and what we found is that the best way to have good candidates a good match of candidates relatively quickly is to have several cells working on the same jobs when you post the job organization, let’s say you’re looking for a software engineer, it’s going to go to the source sales, we know community of 4000. Now the most likely to have relevant candidates to refer. So we look at their past performance, their domain of expertise. And what they do is they compete, submit their met best matching resume. And that’s really a game changer. You know, we can imagine as a recruiter, you spend five minutes posting your job, five minutes reviewing your candidates, and you can, you know, show up for four interviews and start interviewing candidates.


Craig Fisher  3:35  

I love it. So I played with the platform, it was very successful for me for my purposes. And it’s easy, I mean, it’s very intuitive. There’s nothing to it, it The, the system kind of walks you through a very quick dashboard to get your job in and set your parameters and you just click go and then the next day you have candidates it’s it’s great.


Joss Leufrancois  3:57  

Yeah, we may need us. You know, the simpler, the better. One off, all I do is make things very complex, then you guys in the most simplest way for our users.


Craig Fisher  4:07  

So this is going to come into play very soon and be very handy for employers that are maybe suddenly a little shorter on staff with recruiters and sourcers than they were, say six months ago. Because, like you say in the article that you wrote, The economy is going to bounce back in a V shape, which means a quick recovery and means hiring is going to have to happen very quickly. So talk about that a little bit of what is Yeah, what does that kind of recovery mean for employers?


Joss Leufrancois  4:39  

Yeah, so I think you know, when I work our this article in June and I was hoping for a U shape record, what will we see it’s probably going more going to use w you know, gummies opening and closing and two bounces are going to be stopped and go right. It just reinforced the fact that you will have organization On foyles contribution videos, we’re going to know how to scale up and down their recruitment capacities. And that’s a very hot thing to do. You know, historically, employers are equipped to deal properly with what is it three to 4% turnover depending on their industry, and some of them again, depending on the industry, they may have to re hire 40% of their workforce. So how are they going to do that knowing they have fewer resources than ever when I say fewer resources, it’s less recruiters less coordinators less leaders know in our industry, I think the number is 40% of for industry recognized and employed. So they will have less people they will have less budgets and optimizing budget has been a job advertising budget has been reduced as well. So the only way they think can cope with the surge of demand. deal with this situation, we need to add technology automation. And, you know, we are seeing its left and right with employers right now and knocking at your door. And also vendors are promising to automate part of the recruitment process. And they ask is very simple. We are rotato and we need to re hire 1000 people and we are not equipped to do that. We are quick to hire probably 50 people a month. And we need solution. And all and the team we have is very small. We’ve got a small team of three or four people. So you are talking about automation of the candidate pipeline automation of the screening, automation of interview scheduling, video interviews, and so on. So that’s kind of the what we are observing on the on the market. What’s hard is that in the past, I was saying till July, when I was approaching cheerleaders with these speech, they were not really to hear it because they were still busy perhaps. I don’t think bad news lay laying off people. And they were not quite ready to hear that things are going to change and perhaps go better. And the need to get ready. There is a you know, there is no better time. I’ve heard I think someone in all industry, Jerome smaller kudos, he said, there’s no better time to change the engine of your car than when is that stencil and that’s the rarity. That’s what’s happening right now. There is no better time to finally get rid of the ETS that is antiquated and bring better system. There is no better time now to bring some automation, artificial intelligence in your equipment process because you don’t have the people that used to do it for you before in us.


Craig Fisher  7:56  

Yeah, and even if you did have the people who We used to do it for you before you can save them time as well. Right and time to market is going to be critical right now. Because, like you said, customers are waiting, right? There’s no, there’s no time to just do a typical ramp up and it’s not like just adding more employees, you’re rebuilding and so that’s a real animal.


Joss Leufrancois  8:18  

And and a lot of these employers may be a food that they will be able to bring back the employees that they felt. But that’s not that’s what well, not what we are selling. First the best candidates out there they’re already from a job you know, we’ve been experimenting with least of late You know, delay of least all these resources that are going gated candidates that time that I’ve been fired. Well, you know, if you engage with this case, you realize that most of them are found a job already. So that’s there is this one factor. The second factor is that they may be Want to bring back the same type type of candidates going back on the retailer example I was giving earlier, they are looking for different type of person. They they used to have a lot of store associates. And now they are more into developing an offline online experience. So they are looking for, you know, designer of this offline online experience. You’ve got, you’re having a lot of curbside pickup that is a different type of talent that you have there. So what? So that’s kind of the ice the challenge that we are going to have in the industry. The other thing I’m thinking about right now, is the fact that these people that had to find a job in a hurry when they got fired from their previous job, they may not be happy, they may have a job out of desperation, but they are going to be more than ever listening to The market. So the ability to be to engage at scale to this, with this passive audience is going to be key, we are going to see, you know, the, it’s going to be the musical chairs, I believe in the next few months, people that took a job for and they don’t really like it and they find another one. And if you want to win as a, as a dental technician either as a as an organization, we want to combine your, you know, your traditional channels, we have a lot more passive sourcing going out there and making your job opportunities known to those passive candidates is going to be critical. Right?


Craig Fisher  10:37  

Yeah. And I think one thing that we’re seeing as a trend is, as you said, job seekers have options now and they’ve developed options, and they’re not necessarily doing just one job, right? They might be doing two or three jobs, and that might be the solution for them right in this gig economy. I don’t know that any one job is really simple. 40 hour a week job. I think We’re breaking things down to task level now. And that people are finding that they can have multiple income streams and might not want to go back to that full time office job that they had before. And so, you know, they’re certainly safety concerns and other family concerns that didn’t exist six months ago.


Joss Leufrancois  11:20  

I totally agree. And you’re going to have a, I think this is a fascinating subject because the the walk the walk as we know, it has changed for us. Most of us work from from home, we will typically have this type of conversation face to face and we’ll be recording something online. And some companies have decided that they will want to bring back their employees to an office. That’s the way they’ve been operating forever. They want to go back to Yeah, I will. I guarantee you that all these employees got used to work from home during COVID and may not want to go back So that’s that’s one aspect. The other aspect is, you mentioned the employer employee bonding, where you had one job that paid all the bills might not be the preeminent model. I don’t think it’s going to be the province where they are 10 years from now, it could be accelerated a lot of things. So I think when you know, building a product like we are building, or when thinking about acquiring or developing talents as a as a cheerleader, you need to think about these new ways these new models were financing or deenie. The gig economy is going to be to take a much more central place, and it’s no longer going to be only for the low level entry level tasks like we are used to, we see a lot more I would say pods of people meeting to to work on an opportunity project or nausea based on very specific skills and on their own time. So, um, this is something I’m fascinated about. I can’t wait to see as the economy reopened if employers will adapt and kind of change their, their portion have more balance between their permanent staff base and freelancer, sales, specialist consultants, their use of technology, artificial intelligence.


I mean, great things.


Craig Fisher  13:33  

You know, I think, to your point, now is an excellent time for employers to start rethinking what actually works for them, right. You’ve got this depleted staff and you have to rebuild. And so now would be a great time to actually measure what’s going to work for you in the future because work is going to change at every company work is going to change. If you go into the next you know, five years with the money Except that we’re going to do everything exactly as we did before, you’re going to lose. Also, you know, your your branding and your messaging to job candidates has to change your transparency and flexibility should change their and the way you talk about that in your job descriptions should change. So many employers still have, you know, a concrete building as the address for a job that they’re posting online right now, which it’s a little ridiculous. I mean, it should say or remote, right for every job and I’m encouraging job seekers that I coach even to apply for every job because I think remote is actually the option for every job right now. But you know, who’s taking the time to look at all the HR gobbledygook that is in the template for every job that people put out? nobody’s doing that yet. And they should be. They should be looking at the culture and analyzing what’s really going to work.


Joss Leufrancois  14:55  

For sure. And I agree with you like the job description is a perfect example. where, you know, most of the time, recruiters will just dust off a job description that was written before. And they will try to adapt it but I think nights it’s an opportunity to, to rethink those job description and to rethink the way we you go about your how you are going to pipeline candidates. And you mentioned a small detail by the fact that when you post a job on most platforms today, you still have to input a physical location. And and that’s, that’s very antiquated. They have jobs right now, ah, they may have they may be completely remote, or they might all you might be able to walk remote but be attached to a specific city. I’ll give you an example. Facebook announced that they are going to let their employees I think work from home until July 2021 or 2021. However, in their job posting this TL puts the address of a specific location And that’s because that they want a plan in case they want to bring candidate that the employees back in, that they live close by. So there might be a love. We need more flexibility in our technology to allow these different scenarios.


Craig Fisher  16:19  

I agree and I don’t think that any of the big ACS players are adapting to that at all yet. I mean, I think there’s probably a plan that includes very expensive consulting and upgrades. But I think that looking at nimble technology at this point is a really good idea in general.


Joss Leufrancois  16:41  

Right, and I think there is a concern, like what I believed in terms of system, applicant tracking system, they are my major shifts happening right now. And you know, you can’t have a an applicant tracking system that doesn’t evolve with your organization that doesn’t evolve with you the way you are recruited. You know, we have the, the, the example of the ability to run remote interviews. I didn’t know it was still a challenge but fall off companies, they were not equipped to do video conferencing like we are doing now. So right. And that’s insignificant seems to be a significant issue in the world of today, but it was for these larger store organizations. So they’ve, they are working with these systems that are not quite ready. And and what I think what’s happening and what’s shifting is that the cost to replace is not what it used to be. You can now and you’ve been, you know, leading implementation of a new world applicant tracking system, and it doesn’t take that much resources that change management effort is not as as great and and I think what’s important now to consider when picking these systems, how quickly they can evolve and customize to your organization and without the systems are only, I will say systems of records as opposed to system of intelligence, a system of record it’s, you know, a spreadsheet something that where you can have some basic workflow by god it’s just going to track and and how all your contacts data stem of intelligence is is the next step is the ability to tell you and to guide you through your, your recruitment process, let’s say you open a requisition, the system will tell you you will need to source at candidates, you need to spend that much on job advertising. And it’s going to take you 47 days to feel the wreck based on aggregated data for your for your category of job. So you can remove this mental load on the on the user, the recruiter and they can focus on building you know, the messaging on engaging with this tactics, convincing them that your your companies that is the one they should pick. And I think there are interesting things happening, you know, in our sector, and and I hope the rate of transformation and the durability of cheerleaders to, to pick that up now is going to increase.


Craig Fisher  19:20  

I think that yes, and as a person who has been on the employer side of these things, trying to implement these, you know, massive changes, you know, if you’ve got a system because you’re a partner with a, let’s say, a large company that is maker of na Ts, and there are several we can think of, and your upgrade and integration requires even the thought of having to hire a third party to do million dollars worth of changes at that. That’s crazy. But yeah, drop that contract


Joss Leufrancois  20:02  

driver, like doesn’t make sense. Well, where is the state of technology right now we are talking about no code platform. And you kind of know it’s a little bit the air table or the the trailer of the world where you can, with no coding skills whatsoever, be able to walk flow, build some sort of automation and AI. This is what this is what the future meaning that a cheerleader, a recruiter, a user will be able to customize a product to fit their needs to bring the old Dell virus chanterelles for very basic integration, the job posting, they are sourcing their vendors, they are agencies and and they will be able to customize so that you know indifferently and experiments and it’s going without involving their IT department without having any worries. In terms of, you know, the organization changing and going in the wrong direction.


Craig Fisher  21:05  

So I worry that our education system, at least in the US isn’t teaching that to kids yet, right? I mean, they do have some coding classes and things like that. But they’re not teaching the kids about the simple platforms that allow you to build automation. And you know, that the hackers of us in the world use all the time to make things happen. And so I’m teaching my own kids. That’s right, they understand how to hack games. So they should be able to understand how to hack making sure they get their homework done and things like that.


Joss Leufrancois  21:37  

Absolutely, no, I agree. I think the the equation of learning to code and so on, he is very interesting. I will compare that with, you know, how we, you know, studied math, and we went pretty far and without really thinking about the application. I think all kids may not need to call that At some point you know there are all of this new technology and I think our GPG free which is a natural natural language processing that will take in you know that sort of language and transform it into whatever you want transformed into HTML coding in the woman sells training into a minimum employees create the job description, right? This means people who don’t necessarily know how to code to be programmed to be able to be on their system independently. So for sure, all the like, everybody should know the basics like the how the logic of coding and different aspects of it. But I think we all need to be hackers and coders. Because we, in my mind, the beauty of for profession is that we are Sure, you know, we, we are great. We are building relationship and we are. This is more or 40 we should focus on that where it’s understanding the broader technical aspects.


Craig Fisher  23:13  

Yeah, I agree. And I think I think anyone can watch YouTube and learn how to use zaps to make things happen. Right. If you understand the concept of IFTTT, then you know, the world is your oyster. And I think that’s the type of thing we should be teaching in schools right now that I don’t feel like it’s happening. And you know, maybe, maybe the adults of the world don’t want the kids to know these things. But I guess most adults don’t know them either.


Joss Leufrancois  23:42  

They don’t I think, you know, if you look at innovation, what I’ve always been fascinated and I did a case study on that on large corporation. You’ve got two types of cooperation. In the approach to innovation, one is going to it’s going to be top down. You are going to To have an innovation ad manager, someone who is going to introduce new technology to pilots and, and so on is going, it’s going to be a separate budget where it’s kind of top down. And as an organization where it’s bottom up, they let their you know, people, pique interest choose, they give them a small budget to experiment with a sourcing tool, they give them a small budget you and and this is how the innovation come into companies. It’s it needs to come from, you know, with a bottom up approach, where it’s a very especially now with budgets and what’s happening with COVID. I’m sure a lot of companies you want to spend spent under AWS nowadays you need to have the CEO signature. So it’s, it’s it’s a it’s going to be tricky.


Craig Fisher  24:51  

It is going to be a bit tricky. And I’ve seen this in big companies like Toyota, they have the right idea. They’re trying to be agile. It’s just Just taking too long for them to get there right and and you have to move at the speed of light right now I think.


Joss Leufrancois  25:06  

Right And look, the generation of cheerleader has also been disappointed greatly with technology and the false promise of artificial intelligence and automation. If you if you interview any cheerleader, they will say that most of the AI so called a product they’ve tried didn’t didn’t work. Right. And that’s a and that’s how because you put all the solution in the same basket. If you tried massage four years ago, you probably have hated it. He was just not much I was not ready. We were lucky enough to have, you know, early adopters that well looking beyond what where we are then. But things take time. You know, the first time I call the number the the person didn’t find me there. The driver didn’t find me. It was a warm mess. I, you know, I missed, I missed my appointment. And I thought this is not working. This is terrible. And you know, fast forward a few years later, I don’t think I will have this issue anymore. So being patient with technology, knowing how to pick your vendors and accepting that you are going to try a few solution. They may not. Most of them might not walk, one or two may have some promise. But you still need to give the time and the chance for things to have an impact. So it’s it’s this combination between having structure that are ready to for this bright rehiring that we are that we talked about earlier, and the safe way all the way they used to I used to do it and combine that with new technology to augment i think is critical.


Craig Fisher  26:56  

So I love that you use the the Uber reference. I’m glad That I found visage as a more mature product than it was four years ago because my experience was great. I’ll tell you the first time I ever ordered an Uber myself was year one in San Francisco, and I was at Twitter headquarters. And I just taught the Twitter recruiting team a bunch of sneaky tricks for for recruiting and sourcing. And then I went down and I was with Lars, I think, and we said, we’re going to get a cab and they said, Why don’t you just order an Uber? We’re like, what is that? This is like month three. And and Uber did find us because we were at Twitter headquarters. So that worked out okay. All right. So you just mentioned again, this great rehiring, is this going to be the the largest mass rehiring we’ve ever seen?


Joss Leufrancois  27:49  

I think so. When you are looking at the unemployment numbers, and you compare them even with the Great Recession, it’s way worse. Now it’s worse. was Tom Riley. And so I think it’s a very exciting time to be know, in our space. I know love for my colleagues and friends don’t don’t feel it that way because of the limited job opportunities out there. But more than ever will be needed and an ability to really think about what what’s next and how to attract the talent of the future leveraging technology, AI.


I think this is what’s going to matter.


Craig Fisher  28:36  

So Josh, I’m going to be doing a series of these webcasts with various people in positions of influence at talent acquisition organizations, and sourcing types. And this is all built up to the global talent sourcing festival that visage is hosting in October. Tell me a little bit about that.


Joss Leufrancois  29:02  

Yeah, that’s something that we, you know, wanted to do. It’s it’s really a celebration of for a community. When I say community, we are thinking about the recruiters users who use our product, and are going to be particularly excited about business 2.0, which is the redesign of the platform, which makes the platform refill it like a consumer app. Then we’ve got so this is going to be one track, we are going to have one track for sourcing community. So these are the you know, for thousands of sales we’re contributing and notifying potential candidates for clients, job openings. And finally, we are going to have a track for talent acquisition leaders, focusing on larger companies, fortune 500 Global international companies that are going to have you know, to think about how to scale up and down and think about boscovich In the great rehiring between, we spoke about Oh yeah.


Craig Fisher  30:04  

That’s great. It sounds amazing to me. I know that I’m excited to be a part of it. My company talent net is helping to produce the event. We’re doing a lot of that now since we’ve pivoted to virtual. And it’s going to be on the hot end platform, which is an amazing immersive experience that feels very intimate when you do an event there. So yeah, I’m excited for that. I know you’re going to have a series of amazing speakers and, and sessions to go along with it. So that’s we don’t have a final date yet. Right. But that’s going to mean we still, you know, waiting for confirmation from some we’ve got some very interesting speakers we went in.


Joss Leufrancois  30:48  

really find finding speakers that are going to captivate the audience on some of the very hot topics of the moment. Diversity, of course, all the everything automation. Artificial Intelligence so that we are going to confirm the date and we want D seven to be very special. We call it a festival because it’s we want it to be fun, full of, you know, insights and knowledge. But we want to people to feel that they’ve attended something special, even if it’s your show.


Craig Fisher  31:21  

Well, I think in this time, we need that we need the connection as recruiters at all over the world. We were not meeting up. I mean, you and I have met up multiple in person and we’re missing it right. So I think these these events help us not only with knowledge and do our jobs better, but to you know, make the connection that I think we’re going to probably be doing for the next few years. Right. I mean, certainly we’ll have in person events again at some point, but I think there’s going to be a lot more of this.


Joss Leufrancois  31:49  

I think so and I think people only know profession and generally professionals are realizing that they need to capitalize on their own personal brand. They don’t They no longer have the coffee machine and the wire crocks network in the company they need to show and demonstrate that they, they have very good insights and they’ve got a vision for the, for the function for the company. And we want this to be one of one of the platforms to enable that.


Craig Fisher  32:19  

All right, alright, once again, Joss Leufrancois, thank you very much for being here. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

About Visage

Visage is a sourcing technology that combines the expertise of 4,000 sourcers and AI to deliver high-quality candidate profiles within hours. Founded in 2015 by Joss Leufrancois, Visage simplifies candidate sourcing and outreach so you can focus on what really matters – people. Providing flexible sourcing solutions that can quickly scale up or down according to your unique hiring needs. Joss has spent over 15 years in the recruiting industry – after 10 years heading a top global recruiting firm, Joss decided it was time to revolutionize the way recruitment was done. Traditionally recruiters spend up to 60% of their time on robotic sourcing tasks: boolean queries, reviewing resumes one by one, finding contact details, and reaching out manually. Joss created Visage, to efficiently locate qualified and interested candidates by building passive candidate pipelines and automating multi-channel engagement (email, LinkedIn, text, and ads).

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